for beloved: issue of OT regeneration vs. NT regeneration:

For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, ¹⁴ how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

so based on the above, there is no such thing as absolute salvation in the OT. The OT law required you to do something .... if you did not do, then you could make a claim on salvation; which means as per your do nothing theology, that would be condemnation under the OT law, as it is under the NT by the way ....

Quote: Originally posted by marco256 on November 17 2009

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for beloved: issue of OT regeneration vs. NT regeneration:

For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, ¹⁴ how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

so based on the above, there is no such thing as absolute salvation in the OT. The OT law required you to do something .... if you did not do, then you could make a claim on salvation; which means as per your do nothing theology, that would be condemnation under the OT law, as it is under the NT by the way ....

 

Where does it say that regeneration did not happen in the OT ? and where did it say that it was no such thing as absolte salvation in the OT ?

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reece: beloved doesn't agree with me at all because my views on OT salvation show that unmerrited election predestination doesn't exist in the OT. He simply understands the core issue and he has no response to scripture, only repetative questions that I have laready answered. . now reece, here is the core issue for you:

If Moses wasn't born again then he could not see the KOG. OT saints was saved just like we are. They looked forward to Christ, we look back.

show me where the born again experience exists in the OT? Show me one OT reference (not a prophetical one) to the born again experience where anyone is saved according to John 3.

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. ⁶ "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. ⁷ "Do not be amazed that I said to you, `You must be born again.'

I am not going to play around with you on this:

Romans 9. What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! ¹⁵ For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPa**ION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPa**ION." ¹⁶ So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. ... He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

then read 1cor10.2 : the baptism of Moses is to be sealed under the covenant at Sinai.

So Moses is saved under the OT law by his faith in God. But Moses (like Paul) is a chosen vessel. You can't say Paul chose to be a Christian. Paul was chosen and he could not resist the will of God. But there are two seperate covenants here and unless you differentiate between the two (Paul and Moses), then you really have no clear concept of salvation. Another way to resolve this:

1. Saul is saved. there is no question about this. (perhaps when he consulted a socerer he could have been condemned, but the what about david and Solomon.. even Ahab)...

2. But what you neglected to adress: if you wilfully broke the OT law, do you lose your salvation? The punishment for breaking the law was clearly death ... is this physical death or spiritual death ( I suppose I inadvertantly answered this in point 1).

So the issue for reece to resolve is twofold and it isn't that complex:

a. Reece has to show where in the OT anyone was saved according to John 3. I adressed the issue of moses for so he can comment on it.

b. reece has to explain how under OT law you could lose your salvation. Did the OT death penalty imply loss of salvation .... Hint: Achan:

Then Joshua said to Achan, "My son, I implore you, give glory to the LORD, the God of Israel, and give praise to Him; and tell me now what you have done. Do not hide it from me." So Achan answered Joshua and said, "Truly, I have sinned against the LORD, the God of Israel, and this is what I did:

... note: saul did the exact same thing ....

God gave Saul a new heart, that is called being born again. : Not it is not, and I have already proven that. Even beloved understands the issues:

GOD S WORD® Translation ©1995
Then the LORD's Spirit will come over you. You will be a different person while you prophesy with them.

Honesty reece, to rely on this shows how when you accuse me of being blind, you condemn yourself with your own words. You have so convinced  yourself that someone can lose their salvation that you have lost any ability to reason. You are just like Nicodemus. One would expect you to know more, but you are blind to the issues before you:

But what you neglected to adress: if you wilfully broke the OT law, do you lose your salvation? The punishment for breaking the law was clearly death ... is this physical death or spiritual death.

So if you claim that Saul lost his salvation, then you have to lump in David,  Solomon and Ahab and Achan all are worse sinners than saul ever was, and according to your judgment on Saul, their repentances (especailly Aha and Achan) were as phoney as Judas' was .... which means of course that one could question all your own phoney claims to repentance before God. That is what constitutes judiazers. They have these rules they pull on you to lord themselves over others, yet they only condemn themselves, with their own phoney claims ...